Posts by jonathan dough

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: And, btw, contrary to what you evidently believe, the 70 years are not a period of servitude. These 70 years represent the prescribed period of time that God had ordained the land of Judah would lie desolate "until the land had paid off its sabbaths." (2 Chronicles 36:21)

This is a false teaching, a falsehood disproven by many far better than me, and you couldn't be more wrong. You really opened up a can of worms. The 70 years does in fact refer to servitude, servitude under the Dominant Babylonian Empire Theory, and nothing in Scripture could be clearer. This is another one of the main issues I address in detail in my treatise which you, or anyone elsc, can find right here:
http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-2.html#D

I'll post my response in two parts for you.
Part I

Servitude “… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” Jeremiah 25:11

Quite frankly, it is unclear exactly what the Watchtower Society’s interpretation of Jeremiah 25:11 is today since it appears to have undergone significant modification from earlier times. The Society’s founder Charles Taze Russell who, in The Time Is At Hand (Studies in the Scriptures, Series 2, 1912 edition, p. 52), argued that the seventy years of serving the king of Babylon only referred to seventy years of desolation of the land and not seventy years of captivity, exile and servitude.

Usher dates the seventy years desolation eighteen years earlier than shown above—i.e., before the dethronement of Zedekiah, Judah’s last king—because the king of Babylon took many of the people captive at that time. (2 Chron. 36:9, 10, 17, 21; 2 Kings 24:8-16.) He evidently makes the not uncommon mistake of regarding those seventy years as the period of captivity, whereas the Lord expressly declares them to be seventy years of desolation of the land, that the land should lie “desolate, without an inhabitant.” Such was not the case prior to Zedekiah’s dethronement. (2 Kings 24:14.) But the desolation which followed Zedekiah’s overthrow was complete; for, though some of the poor of the land were left to be vine-dressers and husbandmen (2 Kings 25:12), shortly even these—“all people, both small and great”—fled to Egypt for fear of the Chaldees. (Verse 26.) There can be no doubt here; and therefore in reckoning the time to the desolation of the land, all periods up to the close of Zedekiah’s reign should be counted in, as we have done.

Russell’s strained rendering of Jeremiah 25:11 whereby the prophetic phrase “… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years” does not apply to anyone actually serving the king of Babylon has evidently been cast aside, as it should have been, for many Jehovah’s Witnesses 607-defenders reject such a narrow interpretation and recognize that the prophecy does entail servitude after all. That is where the bulk of the intellectual debate seems to be taking place, and where the authors of Setting the Record Straight have taken a strong, though misguided, stand.

In all fairness to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, seventy-year theories abound. All such theories, except one, have the difficult, if not impossible, task of fitting the seventy years into a workable framework or slot. These flawed theories fail because they generally fall short of seventy years, or exceed it. In the case of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they both fall short and exceed seventy years and thus fail at both ends of the chronological spectrum with respect to devastation and servitude.

This paper takes the position that although it is helpful to understand when “these nations” (not only Judah) began to serve the king of Babylon it does so in order to establish the beginning of the Babylonian Empire as it relates to Jeremiah 25:11, which was 609 B.C.E., because the only acceptable and workable seventy-year theory is the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory. It is a very simple and straightforward concept. The seventy years began in 609 B.C.E. when the king of Babylon brought to an end the Assyrian Empire at the final battle of Haran; it ended seventy years later in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes. During this seventy-year period the affected nations of the earth collectively served, and were dominated by, the Babylonian Empire.

With this in mind it is important to understand why this paper argues that the Jews began serving the king of Babylon long before Jerusalem’s destruction - it is to prove that the Jehovah’s Witnesses' theory fails because it exceeds seventy years under their interpretation, although the exact number of those excessive years of servitude is not important. It is not necessary to prove a full seventy years of Jewish servitude to Babylon either as vassals or captive exiles because that is not required to disprove the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ 607 theory. As a matter of fact, proving that Judah’s Jews served Babylon a full seventy years is irrelevant under the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory, a concept difficult for many people to grasp.

Equally important is the year in which the seventy-year prophecy ended, namely 539 B.C.E., when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes, and not upon the Jews' return to Judah. The scriptural basis for this conclusion is also solid - reasonable minds cannot draw any other conclusion. And because the seventy-year period of servitude ended in October of 539 B.C.E., and not as the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim in 537 B.C.E. upon the exiles’ return to Judah, their theory fails at this end of the chronological spectrum as well. It bears repeating - the date the nations’ seventy years of servitude ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell is an extremely important point to remember because Jerusalem could not have been destroyed in 607 B.C.E. since that amounts to 68 - 69 years only, a fatal shortfall of one or two years.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: But, again, I don't know a thing about any "70-year Return Theory." As you have explained it to me, this idea of yours sounds rather stupid to me; "70-year Return Theory" idea of yours is certainly not a scriptural concept.

Eggnog: I'm a total stranger to this concept that you yourself invented, ...
Without realizing it you have conceded the truth of my position with respect to your 70-year Return Theory because it has no basis in scripture - you're got that right. While I applied an apt label for your theory, you and the Society are fully aware of the underlying concept and it is you and yours who have invented this unbiblical notion. And this invention of yours states that the 70-year period ended when the Jews returned to the Promised Land despite overwhelming proof that the fulfillment of the 70 years ended while they were in Babylon in the land of their enemies. You claim I've offered no scriptural proof to substantiate this, but I have, I've posted it here, there are pages of it on my website, and you evidently didn't see it or choose to ignore it. The only verses you rely on are 2 Chronicles and Jeremiah, but Leviticus 26:32-35 proves you and the Society wrong, stating clearly that the sabbaths would be paid off while the Jews were in Babylon, not when they returned to Judah. You don't have seventy years. I'll post some of it again.

32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.

34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the return of the Jews marked the end of the seventy years.

Jeremiah 25:12 states that only after the seventy years had ended, or been fulfilled, Jehovah would call the king of Babylon to account, which he did beginning with its fall to Cyrus in October 539 B.C.E., one date the Jehovah’s Witnesses and everyone else seem to agree on. The seventy years ended when Babylon fell, not two years later when the exiles stepped foot back on the soil of Judah. You're missing two years for your theory to work properly.

For the sake of argument, even if Jeremiah 29:10 were to read that the 70 years of servitude ended while they were "at" Babylon rather than "for" Babylon, it still proves you and the JWs wrong because the period of servitude ended while the captives were in Babylon, not on their return and repatriationi in Judah. Again, your version of the 70 years are a fabrication, mere fiction.

2 Chronicles 36:20 states that the captives removed to Babylon would be servants to the king “until the royalty of Persia began to reign,” which began October 539 B.C.E. and not until the exiles physically returned to Judah two years later.

"Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; ... "

Both sides agree that Babylon fell to the Persians in October 539 B.C.E. That fall signaled the beginning of Persia’s reign. The prophet Daniel foretold its sudden collapse when he interpreted the writing on the wall for Babylon’s king Belshazzer,“This is the interpretation of the word: MENE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and finished it.” And he did in 539 B.C.E. The 70 years did not end when they returned, and you still lack 70 years under your theory.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-3.html#G

Eggnog: BTW, I didn't say this in my previous message, but Moses died in 1473 BC, which means that when Jeremiah wrote what he did -- I believe he was at least 18 when he became a prophet of God, if not younger -- that he had to have been a prophet from about 647 BC until 580 BC since this is the year when the book bearing his name was completed. This means that when he began to prophesy, Moses had been dead 826 years, so this nonsense about Leviticus that you were going on about in your previous post makes no sense at all, unless you're suggesting that Jeremiah was a prophet for Moses, too.

You're confused. The original prophecy was handed down by Moses and extrapolated on by Jeremiah. There is nothing in Scripture which prohibits Jeremiah from passing on or discussing or contemplating Moses' prophecy at Leviticus 26:32-35, just like Daniel at 9:2 spoke of Jeremiah's prophecy at 25:11. This isn't one of your better arguments, and an apostacy according to your elders.

I ask because, again, it disproves the JWs' false teaching, and yours, that the 70 years ended when the Jews arrived back in Judah, in October of 537.

Eggnog: Ok.

Once again you concede my point, and by virtue of your concession you admit that the alleged 70 years claimed by the Society is less than that, their many teachings in this regard are false, which means they are false teachers, and false prophets because it disproves their claims to 1914. If your elders knew you actually believed this they would kick you out as an apostate.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

But it is the exact same period, and because Moses promised that paying off the Sabbaths would end while the Jews were in captivity, in Babylon, and therefore not upon their return to the Promised Land, the Society's 70-year Return Theory is proven utterly and completely false.

Eggnog:I don't know a thing about any "70-year Return Theory," but maybe you could start at the beginning and explain it to me.
The JWs' Return Theory stands for the false proposition that the 70 years ended when the Jews returned to the Promised Land and were repatriated, not before. But as scripture makes abundantly clear, and as I've explained in detail repeatedly, that is simply not possible and illustrates yet another false teaching, a significant one. I address this contention and the JWs' Return Theory in great detail in the material here: http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html You said you read it, but you obviously have not. Had you in fact read the relevant material you would understand exactly what the Return Theory is, it's your theory after all and those whom you work for, and it has been proven incorrect in many, many ways.

And, to further help us understand the Society's position, exactly what month, in layman's terms so others can understand, did the 70 years begin? June? July? August? September? How about October as the Society teaches?

Eggnog:I cannot give you the Society's position; the Society is not a person. As I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I can tell you what I believe with regard to this question you ask as to when it was the 70-year period of desolation began. It was in the month of Tishri on the Hebrew calendar, just before the festival of ingathering was to be celebrated on Tishri 15-21, 3155 AM, October 11-17, 607 BC, Julian, October 4-10, 607 BC, Gregorian, but it couldn't be observed there in Jerusalem because Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed Solomon's temple in Jerusalem before the festival of booths could commence.

Eggnog: Why do you ask?
October, then, just as they taught you. I ask because, again, it disproves the JWs' false teaching, and yours, that the 70 years ended when the Jews arrived back in Judah, in October of 537. Because it didn't. It ended long before that while the Jews were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, the time period is less than 70 years as you and they claim, and the AD 1914 date is consequently false as well, a false prophecy, another false teaching. If you really are interested please read the material you will find here, then feel free to get back with me on specifics if you are still confused and don't understand:
http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

Eggnog:I cannot give you the Society's position; the Society is not a person.

I understand why you persist on distancing yourself from the Society, because it protects the Society from your flawed and false teachings. This way, they can disavow you and it protects you as well. Furthermore, it diverts the reader here from examing the false teachings they propogate. But the battle really is with them. They are the ones killing innocent children, destroying innocent lives, wrecking families and all of the other horrible things countless thousands have attested to.

We find it incomprehensible that you claim to be one of them yet disown so much of your religion's teachings, the books and tracks and ocean of theories you concoct out of thin air and confine yourself to new light 21st century material. It just doesn't make sense, but it does prove in spades that the Society, and you, are false teachers and false prophets. If so much of the 20th century material is false, and you and they teach it, you are false teachers. But answer me this? If books like Let Your Kingdom Come are false teachings as you claim, where specifically is this 21st century material that refutes that information? And why do they keep selling/handing out those outdated books and tracts if they are false? Why is so much of that material still in use during your studies, and offered to the public, and why don't you or they specifically repudiate those portions, book by book, line by line? I know you're smarter than this. I believe sincerely that you know perfectly well that you belong to a false religious organization, that you are one of its false teachers and you are perpetuating a sham using your legal skills. As others have pointed out repeatedly, you have a tendencey to confuse, contradict, and generally muddy the waters with low-ball legal arguments that are easily exposed. By confusing people with your lack of clarity and double-speak, those less educated throw up their hands and simply believe it is beyond their grasp and that somehow you know better than they because you are so smart and they are just too dumb to understand the basics. That's shameful. I mention this in my prologue to the second treatise with respect to the fiction of the literal 144,000,where I wrote:

The Society's theories are laced with hair-splitting and often inconsequential distinctions. Just because the walls in the bedroom are painted green, it doesn't automatically follow that the thief buried the treasure in the backyard. Related to this is a third tool used to shore up their doctrine, namely, they too often read things too narrowly which makes it easier for them to deflect criticism. And lastly, one is left with the unmistakable impression that they don't want their own people to really know what the Society is teaching because core doctrine is constantly changing and is scattered all over the place resulting in a literary shell game. Great lengths have been taken to muddy the intellectual waters. This creates confusion and contradictions which compells the reader to rely on the Society's "understanding." Consequently, what might appear to be the work of some lofty, divine will is in all probability the work of some very crafty lawyers, among others.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#intro

Defending these people when you know perfectly well they are charlatans is hypocritical. I suggest you to take a close look at yourself and what you are trying to accomplish on JWN before you get into serious trouble. Most people have seen right through you.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

J.Dough: This is a splendid example of your confusion and contradictory viewpoints. Here, you claim the seventy years count from Jerusalem's destruction, and shortly thereafter you claim it does not and the count begins with the desolation of Judah, which followed Jerusalem's destruction. You can't have it both ways.

Eggnog: I can't have what "both ways"? Solomon's temple was destroyed after an 18-month siege, Nebuchadnezzar's third siege on Jerusalem, when a breach was made in Jerusalem's wall causing Zedekiah and his men to flee Jerusalem only to be overtaken by Nebuchadnezzar in Jericho, at which time Zedekiah was blinded and led captive to Babylon. (2 Kings 25:1,2, 4, 8-10)

It was at this time that the prophet Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch were permitted to remain with the poor in Judah (Jeremiah 40:1-5) under Gedaliah's provisional government, who had been appointed governor by Nebuchadnezzar, in the fifth lunar month of Ab, when just two months later after Gedaliah's assassination, in the seventh lunar month of Tishri, those left over in the province of Judah took flight in fear of Babylon and went to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. The dethroning of Zedekiah and the assassination of Gedaliah all occurred during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, or his 19th year if one includes his accession year and this is when the "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy began to be counted! (Daniel 4:25)

You're dodging the issue again. It's very simple, counselor, and I couldn't have made it clearer above. Did the 70 years begin with the destruction of Jerusalem, yes or no. Or did the 70 years begin with the complete desolation of Judah, yes or no.

And, to further help us understand the Society's position, exactly what month, in layman's terms so others can understand, did the 70 years begin? June? July? August? September? How about October as the Society teaches?

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

The reference to the land paying off its sabbaths is a direct reference to Leviticus 26:32-35 which also should have been brought to the readers' attention.

Eggnog: Why? Well, not the reference I made in this thread to "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon" by the Jews during which "the land [would pay] off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years" didn't come from Leviticus 26:32-35, but to Jeremiah 29:10 and 2 Chronicles 36:21.

We understand completely why you want to ignore Leviticus 26:32-35 and pretend that it somehow does not refer to the same prophecy, that it is the exact same period of time referenced at 2 Chronicles 36:21. But it is the exact same period, and because Moses promised that paying off the Sabbaths would end while the Jews were in captivity, in Babylon, and therefore not upon their return to the Promised Land, the Society's 70-year Return Theory is proven utterly and completely false. Now, if you can prove to us that Moses in Leviticus was referring to another 70-year period when the Jews would pay off their sabbaths while they were in the land of their enemies, please, share that with us, preferably with specific verses to back up your point. The reference in Jeremiah and 2 Chronicles comes directly from Moses' prediction in Leviticus, and it harmonizes with all of the other verses which likewise claim that the fulfillment, or end, of the 70 years of the nations' collective servitude to Babylon ended while the Jews were in Babylon.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/607_bce_586_587_destruction_fall_desolation_jerusalem.html

@Jonathan Dough wrote:

You are actually weakening your case when you rely on Leviticus to prove that the land of Judah began to pay off its sabbaths to fulfill 70 years, and had you quoted the entire relevant verses instead of select portions you would clearly see that your theory actually disproves 70 years, an exact number to the month according to the WTBS, because it ended while the Jews were in Babylon, not when they supposedly returned. You fall one or two years short. This is a common trick used by the Jws with these verses.

Eggnog: What "common trick"? When did I make a case here about something contained in the Bible book of Leviticus? About what exactly was this "case" of mine?

It's a common trick, or ploy, because the Society doesn't show all of its cards and treats so much of this as a game. It's not complicated, and we're all rather used to it. They, and you, are essentially taking 2 Chronicles and Jeremiah out of context, but Leviticus puts it back into context, fleshes it out, so to speak, and proves quite forcefully that the 70 years ended while the Jews were captives in Babylon, not when they returned, and accordingly, you don't have 70 years and fall short at least one, and probably two, years.

@Jonathan Dough:

The issue isn't what you believe because most of us don't care, but what the Watchtower Society teaches....

Eggnog: Is that right? If you have been imagining here that you have been discussing with me is what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society teaches, then you aren't aware that the WTS is the just corporate publishing arm staffed by Jehovah's Witnesses that produces the literature, including Bibles and media items, that Jehovah's Witnesses use in their Christian ministry. If you have imagining here that you have been discussing with me what Jehovah's Witnesses teach in their ministry (which is what I had imagined you were doing), and you don't care what my views are, then maybe I should withdraw from this thread, at least I should withdraw from it to the extent that I stop exchanging posts with you since, as it happens, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

You're splitting hairs unnecessarily. When I speak of the Watchtower Society I include the ministry, although I wouldn't go so far as to call it "Christian" as the great majority of Christendom regards that term. As far as you withdrawing, by all means feel free to hit the road. I don't think you will be missed, necessarily. As for your views, it's impossible to tell what they are or whether they harmonize with the Society's because you repudiate so much of their teachings, walk your own path when you think it suits you and easily turn on your brothers, like those who wrote Setting the Record Straight who are actually on your side. Your cheap lawyer arguments are easily seen through. Confuse, deflect, ignore ... I suppose you can't help that.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

@Witness My Fury wrote:

Do the "seventy years" count from Jerusalems destruction or not?

@djeggnog wrote:

Eggnog: Yes.

@Jonathan Dough wrote:

This is false. According to the JWs, the 70 years lasted exactly 70 years to the month, not from Jerusalem's destruction.

Eggnog: No, actually the 70 years would begin counting from the desolation of Judah. Solomon's temple was destroyed some two months before the desolation of Judah began, since Gedaliah had been appointed as governor in Judah in the fifth lunar month of Ab, only be assassinated two months later by Judean military chiefs in the seventh lunar month of Tishri, which caused the inhabitants of Judah to flee to Egypt along with Jeremiah and his secretary. It is then in this year -- 607 BC -- that Nebuzaradan, Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard, went on to destroy Jerusalem and its temple.

Now earlier in this thread, I indicated how 2 Kings 25:8 states that it was after Gedaliah's assassination that Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard Nebuzaradan destroys Jerusalem and his temple during Nebuchadnezzar's nineteenth year, when I had intended to say that this event occurred before his assassination. It was some two months after Zedekiah's first year in exile that Babylon began to exercise totalitarian control over the Promised Land that God had given to the nation of Israel back in 1473 BC as the dominant world power.

This is a splendid example of your confusion and contradictory viewpoints. Here, you claim the seventy years count from Jerusalem's destruction, and shortly thereafter you claim it does not and the count begins with the desolation of Judah, which followed Jerusalem's destruction. You can't have it both ways.

The issue isn't what you believe because most of us don't care, but what the Watchtower Society teaches, and in their publication which you so easily discard, they claim the 70 years runs from October to October, exactly. But until you present us with a 21st century publication that specifically refutes that claim, the material in Let Your Kingdom Come must stand, and the burden has shifted to you to provide some concrete evidence that the Society has altered its views on this, which they won't because it would devastate even further their shaky theory.

Furthermore, if you insist on arguing that the 70 years begins some time before October, which you gloss over by referring to that time period as "in this year," you should at least give us the exact month vis-a-vis the Society's chosen month of October. Additionally, if your 70 years commences before October of the year Jerusalem was destroyed, and especially if you claim it began upon Jerusalem's destruction, which you do above, you have two additional insurmountable problems. First, the land was inhabited by those Jews who eventually fled to Egypt because they didn't leave until after Jerusalem was destroyed. And secondly, your seventy years could never, under any circumstances, have ended upon the Jews return and repatriation in October of 537 because your pre-October claim pulls the 70-year period back too far in time.

@Jonathan Dough:

You are very much mistaken in this regard also, and Ann is absolutely correct. There were in fact inhabitants in all that land that the JWs argue was 100 percent uninhabited.

Eggnog: Ok.

Thank you for agreeing that the WBTS are false teachers in this significant regard. But here is another blatant contradiction of yours. Whereas you just now agree with me that in fact the land was not completely uninhabited, you also argue with Ann that it was in fact completely uninhabited, and changed your position with me again, stating "Actually, I believe the Bible when it indicates that the land of Judah wasn't inhabited," despite the overwhelming evidence presented above that it was.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: The land of Judah lay desolate for seventy years

Well, this is patently false and one of the main issues I address in great deal in the material you can find right here: http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

Of the many dozens of issues discussed in this paper, you only address one or two of them, badly I might add, despite claiming to have read it thorougly, which I find difficult to believe. Accordingly, and until you choose to discuss these issues head-on, I'll let the lurker or genuinely interested reader read the paper on their own. Trust me on this, after a long year of research and writing on this topic, it is biblically impossible for the land of Judah to have been desolate, without a single inhabitant, for 70 years, according to the phrophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 and elsewhere.

Eggnog: Jeremiah foretold that the land of Judah's would be made to lay desolate "until the land had paid off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years" (2 Chronicles 36:21). The fact that during this 70-year period, the Jews were exiles in Babylon for at least 68 of these 70 years. Actually Daniel had been an exile in Babylon for 11 years longer than 68 years, for he, along with his wives, his mother, his court officials and other "foremost men," became exiles at Babylon "in the eighth year" of Nebuchadnezzar's kingship when Jehoiachin's vassalage to Babylon ended. (2 Kings 24:12) This was when Daniel's name was changed to "Belteshazzar."

The underlined sentence makes no sense whatsoever, and that which follows is immaterial to the issue and a calculated smoke screen intended to divert readers from Leviticus 26:32-35 whereby Moses prophesied that Judah would pay off its Sabbaths all the days of its lying desolate while the exiles were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, and not after they returned.

32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.
34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

Again, you lack a couple of years and your 70-year theory is mere fiction. The Watchtower Society insists that the 70 years span exactly 70 years to the month, and to the extent that you repudiate your faith as you so casually do, well, thanks for proving our point that the Society is composed of false teachers, the same teachers that Christ and other Bible writers warned us about.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: While it is true that Jehovah's Witnesses have concluded that it was in the year 607 BC that Babylon destroyed Solomon's temple in Jerusalem, which led to the desolation of the land of Judah and the exile of the Jews...

This is another false teaching. The destruction of Jerusalem did not lead to the desolation of the land of Judah.

Large parts of Judah were destroyed before Jerusalem fell. Before Jerusalem was destroyed Nebuchadnezzar’s army conquered all of Judah’s many cities except two:

And Jeremiah the prophet proceeded to speak to Zedekiah the king of Judah all these words in Jerusalem, when the military forces of the king of Babylon were fighting against Jerusalem and against all the cities of Judah that were left remaining, against Lachish and against Azekah; for they, the fortified cities, were the ones that remained over among the cities of Judah." (Jeremiah 34:6, 7).

An objective reading of the Jewish condition should hopefully lead one to conclude that the land of Judah, and its principal city Jerusalem, had become “a devastated place, an object of astonishment” even before the final and complete destruction of Jerusalem, and even though it was inhabited. Jehovah's destruction obviously could not have started with Jerusalem. http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-6.html

Eggnog: and the repatriation of Judah by the Jews at the end of 70 years as set forth in the Bible.

Another false teaching referred to as the JWs Return Theory, clearly repudiated by scripture because you can't come up with your 70 years according to clear and unmistakable verse. As mentioned in a previous post, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the 70 years ended when the Jews returned and were repatriated in the land of Judah. Leviticus 26:32-35 states that the period of time when Judah would pay off its sabbaths ended while the Jews were in Babylon, not Judah.

Jeremiah 25:12 states that only after the seventy years had ended, or been fulfilled, Jehovah would call the king of Babylon to account, which he did beginning with its fall to Cyrus in October 539 B.C.E., one date the Jehovah’s Witnesses and everyone else seem to agree on. The seventy years ended when Babylon fell, not two years later when the exiles stepped foot back on the soil of Judah. You're missing two years for your theory to work properly.

For the sake of argument, even if Jeremiah 29:10 were to read that the 70 years of servitude ended while they were "at" Babylon rather than "for" Babylon, it still proves you and the JWs wrong because the period of servitude ended while the captives were in Babylon, not on their return and repatriationi in Judah. Again, your version of the 70 years are a fabrication, mere fiction.

2 Chronicles 36:20 states that the captives removed to Babylon would be servants to the king “until the royalty of Persia began to reign,” which began October 539 B.C.E. and not until the exiles physically returned to Judah two years later.

"Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; ... "

Both sides agree that Babylon fell to the Persians in October 539 B.C.E. That fall signaled the beginning of Persia’s reign. The prophet Daniel foretold its sudden collapse when he interpreted the writing on the wall for Babylon’s king Belshazzer,“This is the interpretation of the word: MENE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and finished it.” And he did in 539 B.C.E. The 70 years did not end when they returned, and you still lack 70 years under your theory.

This, in actuality, is unimpeachable evidence that the seventy years of servitude came to an end first in 539 B.C.E. and only later, in 537 B.C.E. would the Jews return. Even with their improper rendering that the seventy years would be accomplished at Babylon, the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory lacks merit. Jeremiah 29:10 supports the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory and disproves the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-3.html#G

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: While it is true that Jehovah's Witnesses have concluded that it was in the year 607 BC that Babylon destroyed Solomon's temple in Jerusalem, which led to the desolation of the land of Judah and the exile of the Jews at Babylon during a 70-year period, our view is supported by an objective reading of the Bible, whereas the viewpoint of some as to Jerusalem's destruction having occurred in the year 587/586 BC is based on... etc.

I'm not ignoring you, just waiting to find the time to respond to your lengthy discourse.

492

607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury in

if this has been covered before i apologise in advance.

using only the bible and a bit of common sense.. ok, here goes:.

do the "seventy years" count from jerusalems destruction or not?

jonathan dough

Eggnog: but I have primarily referred to the Bible in making the case that the land of Judah began to pay off its sabbaths to fulfill 70 years in the year 607 BC.

You are actually weakening your case when you rely on Leviticus to prove that the land of Judah began to pay off its sabbaths to fulfill 70 years, and had you quoted the entire relevant verses instead of select portions you would clearly see that your theory actually disproves 70 years, an exact number to the month according to the WTBS, because it ended while the Jews were in Babylon, not when they supposedly returned. You fall one or two years short. This is a common trick used by the Jws with these verses.

First, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the return of the Jews marked the end of the seventy years. Second, Leviticus 26:32-35 whereby Moses prophesied the pending curse and punishment that befell the Jews states that Jehovah would scatter them among the nations and that the land would become a desolation, and Judah would pay off its Sabbaths all the days of its lying desolate while the exiles were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, and not after they returned.

32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.
34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-3.html